Miracles, Magic, Religion, and Ceremonies
Many of you are aware that Nathaniel shares a Bible chapter with us each Sunday morning. I would like to share this discussion several of us had with him after our Bible session on December 28, 2014, as he discusses Miracles, Magic, Religion and Ceremonies. We got a lot out of it, I hope you will too. Lewis
Nat: Hello
Lewis: How are you doing?
Nat: That was an interesting movie you had on, the one with the Librarians, and that poor sword. This book (The Bible) does not like magic. The things that you would call magic are prohibited in here. Just like going to ask a person to call a spirit to you to talk to you is also forbidden in here. There are other things. So I would look into what is magic and what is the power of God. NOTE: ( A Medium or Psychic does not call a spirit to you but it is still considered wrong for a very different reason.)
The reason God does not like magic is they are seeking for it out here without a connection to Him. God can do all of those things and better. Like if you go to God seeking for a sign or a message or healing. Look at Moses, they are hungry and starving out in the desert being drug around everywhere with angry natives whenever they come and so they need protection, they need water, they need shelter, they need food. They need all kinds of things and he did not resort to magic. God always gave him instructions and like when he would take his staff and touch a rock, water would come out of it. (1:39.4)
Okay that looks like magic. It’s not magic. It comes from God, okay? There was also the issue of people are getting bit by snakes. And these are deadly snakes. They don’t have medicines and they are being drug around in the desert anyway so you can’t just go out and make a medicine. You have to have access to a forest or something to get the various herbs and things you need. That’s not in the desert. So what are they going to do? And so if enough people complain Moses asks God and God said if you will make a brass serpent and put it up on a pole, if they look at the serpent they will be immune from a bite. So that worked for a while.
They started worshiping the serpent on the pole. That takes what comes from God and turns it into magic. They are now worshiping the serpent on the pole. So Moses had to destroy the serpent on the pole.
That’s the difference. Where does it come from? Where is the true source of the energy no matter what it does because I guess it’s magic versus miracle, the miracle being God. God is the source of the energy and the idea to do a certain thing like put a brass serpent on a pole so that when someone looks at it the snake bite just doesn’t affect you. But you go and you worship the snake on the pole which is a brass piece of brass and you think that’s going to protect you, you will find that it doesn’t. So magic is fallible. Miracles are from God. That’s the difference.
It becomes very hard to tell sometimes and if you are in a very hard place, if you are in a desert and you are alive you have got to be very careful because you are desperate not to go after magic but to ask for a miracle.
Fritz: That’s interesting. I have a question. You said that doing something with that connection with God that would be considered a miracle, something from God. And using something that’s not a connection, that would be more magic. (0420) There are certain recipes or certain things as a sorcery that people even wear, it doesn’t matter what connection you have if you do it ... (Fritz section edited for correction 2/22/18 Lew)
Nat: It’s supposed to automatically work.
Fritz: Exactly. Can somebody do that with a connection, I mean use sorcery but with God?
Nat: It’s called prayer.
Fritz: Can you explain it a little more like that?
Nat: Okay a spell is words that are designed to create an energy which will have a certain result. A prayer is words with certain energy you are asking God for the result. Once again there is a division between that which is human and that which is divine, the origin of the power. Now in the magic it’s just someone is trusting that the energy is there, and Energy is there. God has put energy into everything. And a certain amount of belief I understand builds energy also so that when you are in a tradition, a cult and you do the same repetitions of expecting and receiving that works.
The true source of course is God always, no matter who thinks what, it’s always God. But it is either unnamed or it is called the god of the oak tree provides the energy for rain to fall for example. And over here both farmers have a drought the one that goes to magic prays to the oak tree, the one that goes to God says a prayer to God. Now it’s true when rain comes, both most likely will receive the rain. But you have seen times where clouds will part and go around and things like that. And I think the very bottom of the whole issue is the intention. Do you intend to manipulate the energy yourself for your own purposes, or do you intend to ask God to provide energy for something that you need? (6:38.4) God is manipulating and providing the energy, not you. All you are doing is asking. That’s the difference.
So Prayer 101 and Magic 101 would have very similar content that you would teach someone, but if you are acknowledging that the Divine is the source, God or whatever you call God, the all that is, the only, the one, the only one, there is only one source. And even the magic, that’s really where it is getting its energy from.
The energy is given and dispensed and it’s around, it’s around. There are sorcerers and they go around and they are able to collect energies and do things with it, store it in various ways. They are doing it and they might have very good intentions for what they do as well. They might want to protect a town, let’s say there is a plague going on and they don’t want anyone in their town to get sick. So they put a protection on the walls of the city and on the water supply for the city to keep the people from getting sick which is a good intention. But if they go around and say "I protected the city" they have just taken God out of the equation which becomes a pride thing. Some people do things for different reasons but they all have to do with "it benefits me the person". Whereas in the prayer you are asking it, perhaps you yourself need a healing or a job. People pray for jobs. And that does benefit you but it always has to be in God’s will. You might not get that particular healing.
You might not get that particular job. He may have something even better in line for you.
Fritz: So when you want friends or for that matter anybody, to invoke or use the energies that are already there to do something, even if it’s good natured, but then they allow pride to get in the way and not realizing that God is the one that did it, can that energy carry a karmic thing that they have to pay back? (0904)
Nat: Okay yes for every action there is a reaction like when a wave comes in it will eventually also go back out. So alright when you receive something from prayer its God’s grace, it’s like a gift. There is not a string attached. When you do something of your own and you manipulate the energy for yourself or on behalf of someone else it’s an ocean wave and there is an energy attached. This is why they get drained of energy, these sorcerers after they do healings or whatever, they are trying to help someone which is a very good thing. But they also in the process they end up using their own energy as well and they get depleted and they have to go and recover.
Some of the sorcerers will actually pull the disease off of somebody and then put it on themselves and then go heal themselves somewhere which is a very dangerous thing to do. What if you can’t get rid of it? So it’s a difference of thought of where does the energy come from and how much control do you have over it? You never have control over what God gives you. You are allowed to receive it but you don’t control it. With magic you are controlling it or at least you think you are. You find out that maybe you aren’t like the little cartoon with the mouse in it. [Sorcerer's Apprentice with Mickey Mouse] You are not necessarily in control of something that you started. Once again the ocean wave, it comes in and then it goes back out. And when it goes back out some stuff might go with it that you didn’t want to lose. So that’s the difference. A waterfall versus the ocean. (1058)
Fritz: I like that, and I think I want to trust something like that.
Nat: Yes a waterfall is prayer, a dispensation from God and magic, like the ocean gives and it takes away rhythmically.
Fritz: Wow, thank you.
Lewis: So how are you doing?
Nat: I am fine. I am fine.
Lewis: We are faced with a New Year.
Nat: Yes. We are going to do our own little ceremony. And we have, we’re going to do some singing. We think that if we sing it will help raise the vibration, the happiness vibration. (1229)
Fritz: Actually you just mentioned something that is interesting. (1246) I understand that the difference of prayer and receiving something in prayer and using magic, where does ceremony fall into it?
Nat: It is used in both. It is used in both. Ceremony is a means of being very formal not just asking. Ceremony in relation to God many times is only to thank. The purpose of being thankful, my mother has said to me the more thanks that you give the bigger your basket for when you receive. You are adding more to the basket so it’s bigger and bigger and bigger.
Ceremony in magic is to impress. Not only the energies of whatever that you think you are getting your energy from "the oak tree god" but the other participants. So fancier and fancier and fancier, brilliant costumes, big jewels, big headdresses. (1350)
Over here ( with God or Prayer ) we have simplicity because the beauty of coming together and doing the songs or whatever itself it doesn’t need to be fancy. The purity enhances it and makes it like a diamond whereas here ( Magic ) we have all the colors, bright and sometimes you have seen when it is too many colors.
Fritz: Yes I have. (1414)
Nat: Or the noise is too, the rhythm is off or something. Over here (Prayer) the simplicity and the perfection because it is merely one thought of we are thankful. This could be done right in the middle of the desert when they were starving. They were still thankful that they weren’t in Egypt anymore and that God was taking care of them. (14:34.4) Things like that, and they would have a ceremony and who does it benefit the most? It’s not God it’s for the people that participate, because together, coming together in the purity of thinking it lifts everybody’s heart.
It takes hope and brings it up to a much higher level from just pure hope in the face of all evidence to the contrary. They are in the desert. They are starving. There are natives that want to shoot them and they are thanking God for being there and it goes above hope to celebration and happiness. (1513) And being able to be happy in a situation like that somebody would say is perhaps insane.
But over here ( Magic) they are having a party and they are impressing each other and they are impressing themselves. I’ve got the biggest headdress. I’ve got more feathers on it than you do. I’ve got three different kinds of feathers, you only have two, you know.
It’s a difference of attitude as well as intention, attitude. Because the attitude, , , there are many people that get into religion. Let us talk about religion. The religions have little lists of rules of you know you need to have so many of this, and you need to bring in incense right at this time and it has to be done by a little boy and you have to have eighteen candles. They have all these rules. And it’s getting from here and it’s going this way. (towards magic) It’s headed that way.
Who is all that is supposed to impress? God’s not counting candles. He’s seeing the purity in your heart. That’s what matters. And yes it’s nice that it’s a little boy but if it was an eighty year old man that wanted to sing and light the one candle what’s wrong with that? Do you see? So religion if they are not watching themselves ... this is why Jesus was always on the Pharisees because they were really big into ceremony. They were taking this and it was sliding sideways over into magic. That’s why he was mad. And every time he would talk about the Pharisees he would always remind everybody present "and they do more than you do. I would like to see you do as much as they do". But they are doing it because they have to.
And they are impressing everybody, especially themselves. They stand on the street corner and go "I am fasting. I have been fasting for seven days. See the ashes on my clothes? I am so holy I have been fasting for seven days". And everybody goes oh what a great saint. And God is going oh what a pain in the… So you see why Jesus was giving those lessons because it has to do with intention and also attitude, attitude. Because they considered themselves, they were holier than everybody else because they did more. And that’s not what makes you holier than everybody else. The purity of what you are doing and it’s not, it’s not a competition. It is not a competition. It’s not a game either. This is very, very serious.
It is staying connected to God. It’s very serious. So ceremony is important and it’s most important for the participants. Together they create an atmosphere of holiness in what they are doing. It lifts them up above out of their daily concerns. Because if you are in the middle of the desert and the natives are mad and you have no food or water, that’s a very difficult situation. And to feel joy and happiness and hopefulness, all at that time because of the ceremony, is a very good thing.
Fritz: Thank you
Lewis: Thank you
Nat: Of course my sister likes it more than I do. I have to get dressed up but she likes it.
Fritz: You have to get dressed up?
Nat: I do sometimes. I have to wear certain colors and things, especially when I was little.
Fritz: It’s interesting to think of you guys as dressing up in a world and dimension that’s so -- non physical. I mean what do the clothes represent, or I don’t want to say clothes but what does the attire represent for you guys?
Nat: Well once again it shows intention. And when we go as a family we wear all the same color. We are showing to everybody that we are family. We are all together with matching colors on and that we are there not just by ourselves but as a family. If we go from school we all wear the yellow shirts together and everybody knows we are from the school and that we are there to do something that we have been taught and we are showing people what we have been learning. It shows people, the other ones that are there, things. And the girls like it. They feel the energies of it. Me, I would rather just be me and stay me, but they like to, they change. They like to change things. (2016) The poor pony they put ribbons on his tail. You should see him. He doesn’t run very much. He’s kind of getting a little bit old. He runs when they play because he thinks they will fall out. And after a while he gets like he is out of breath and they come and they pet him and they give him a carrot or two and they put more ribbons on him. He’s like out of breath.
Fritz: So you can put ribbons on Lewis?
Nat: I don’t know. I’m not going to do it.
Lewis: Thank you
Nat: Well I guess I will go.
Lewis: Well we thank you for coming and for sharing.
Nat: I will see you again.
Lewis: Have a good time. Bye, bye
Nat: Okay
END
Date Rec: 12-28-14 File # :141228 Nat Lesson Magic
